The Most Contemporary Dance: An Interview with Paweł Sakowicz

pawel_sakowicz_portret.jpg, default, Paweł Sakowicz, photo: Karolina Zajączkowska, center

'I am fascinated by the notion of acceleration and deceleration', says Paweł Sakowicz, one of the hottest names in modern Polish choreography. He talks to Marcelina Obarska about the end of the world and misunderstandings concerning the term 'contemporary dance'.

Marcelina Obarska: How do you write down your choreography?

Paweł Sakowicz: When it comes to a new production of a show or a performance, your best bet is to rely on memory. My body remembers a whole lot when performing a choreography and a bit less when I watch a performance as a spectator. So I rely primarily on my eyes and ears. Luckily, most premieres and important shows are archived, which can be very helpful. I know that some choreographers like to keep recording stuff during rehearsals in order to keep coming back to them. I noticed that I didn’t have time to do this, neither to record it, nor to watch it later. What works for me are analogue notes. I have separate notebooks for different projects. I write down keywords concerning the content of rehearsals and fragments of the script or I make simple geometric drawings related to a given composition.

I found it interesting to learn how such a contemporary movement score is created.

In the past, cinematography was used [a movement notation system developed by dancer and choreographer Rudolf von Laban – Ed.] but nowadays probably only the fans of this kind of notation use it. Like most of my friends, I use mainly video and my own notes.

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Paweł Sakowicz's notes on choreography, photo: courtesy of the artist

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At this year’s Malta Festival you are showing a work titled Masakra (Massacre) Where did this title come from?

I attach great importance to the descriptions and titles of my works. I have another notebook with a few titles for the future. Massacre works as a title on many plains: on the one hand, I reflect on the absorption of dances from South and Central America by Western culture. To some extent, these dances were ‘massacred’ , butchered. On the other hand, I have an ear for ambiguous words, including slang. One of my earlier works is titled TOTAL. While I was roaming the streets, I heard everyone repeating the word ‘total’. Something similar happened with ‘massacre’, which can be understood either as something incredible or something dreadful [translator’s note: in addition to its literal meaning, the Polish equivalent of ‘massacre’ can also mean ‘totally awesome’]. Besides, the word sounds cool and is easy to remember.

Massacre is your way of dealing with your long-standing career in ballroom dancing.

I practised it for over a decade; it was a huge part of my life. In the final days of my career as a ballroom dancer I was almost doing only that. I went to school normally but my evenings and weekends were filled with trips, tournaments, training sessions… When I took up contemporary dance, my favourite compliment was to hear people say 'You don’t look like someone who practised ballroom dancing', as I didn’t have any weird ornaments in my hands and so on. But then I thought that since this had been such a big part of my life, I should probably work with it.

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Scene from Massacre choreographed by Paweł Sakowicz, photo: Maurycy Stankiewicz/Nowy Teatr in Warsaw

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This is the first work where you are the author but not a member of the cast. How do you recall this way of working with others? Would you like to repeat it?

It had its advantages and disadvantages. I could make sober judgments at each rehearsal and see what was going on. I could watch the performers and share my suggestions with them on the spot. However, I really like to perform on stage and when I hear the show’s music and see them dance, my leg just keeps moving. In the future, I would like to maintain a balance between the works where I’m totally on the outside and the works where I’m also a performer. Now I’m working on a group performance but with me on the inside. I’ve already had this kind of experience with Thriller, a collaboration with Anna Smolar and Sonia Roszczuk

What are your professional plans for the near future?

I will travel a lot with Jumpcore and Thriller. Masssacre is rather big so it’s sometimes hard to sell. I will also undertake a few collaborations with directors that I have previously done some theatrical work with: Łukasz Twarkowski and Magda Szpecht. In addition, I was offered a production by the Lithuanian National Drama Theatre in Vilnius so I will go there with my dance performance in the spring of 2021. It’s far into the future but at least it’s certain to happen

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Scene from Jumpcore photo: Maciej Zakrzewski/Pawilon Poznań

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What about solo works? Any upcoming titles in your notebook?

I’ve got something but I think it’s too soon to talk about it. What I enjoy about solo works is that they are easier to show: they’re cheaper as well as less complicated logistically and technically. This is why Jumpcore travels a lot. It is a part of the Aerowaves [a European dance network supporting young choreographers – Ed.], it will be shown by the Polish Dance Platform [September 2019 in Gdańsk – Ed.] and it was also purchased by Zachęta for its permanent collection.

Right, it is the first performance in the National Gallery’s collection.

We had to work out a new type of collaboration with Magda Komornicka. I asked around and this was rather unheard of in Poland so Zachęta and I had to draft a contract that would be beneficial to both parties. As a result, Jumpcore can be a part of both circuits: it can be more on the dance side of things if I take the initiative – then institutions that invite me can sign a contract with Zachęta to borrow my work; or, it can also work another way, which I hope for, when Zachęta informs me that, for example, ‘Museum X would like to show it’, and then I get on a train and go perform it somewhere. This way, Jumpcore would be like a painting or a sculpture, which would also be cool

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Scene from Jumpcore, photo: Maciej Rukasz/Pawilon Poznań

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What do you think about the autonomy of contemporary dance in current times? Have you noticed any changes in the relationship between dance and theatre over the years?

I think the times are hard but not tragic. Thanks to the effort of numerous curators and artists the visibility of dance – no matter how you look at it – has increased. Performances are no longer attended only by families, friends, and other dancers. Based on the performances of my works in Nowy Theatre or on the Studio Dance Stage at Studio Theatre, I can say that more and more people associated with visual arts and theatre attend them and that a new young audience for dance and performance is growing in numbers. These changes are happening and dance is becoming an important phenomenon. It may not be so great on the institutional level but dance is visible around the town.

Perhaps theatre absorbs certain strategies that have been developed by contemporary dance much earlier but it all depends on people and what they agree on with each other when working together on a show.

It depends on how much are you willing to share as a dancer in terms of your knowledge and tools?

Being a man of dance, working in the theatre taught me many things, including working with large groups as well as dealing with theatrical machinery and stages. I often notice that dance and theatre people talk about the same things but use completely different languages and concepts. Luckily, we can compare and check it

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Scene from Massacre choreographed by Paweł Sakowicz, photo: Maurycy Stankiewicz/Nowy Teatr in Warsaw

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What can theatre learn from contemporary dance?

Due to the historical circumstances, among others, we differ in terms of work ethics. Dance teams have always been very strong and consequently we (me and the artists I know) strive to make the process pleasant so that it is not some kind of torture but rather an opportunity to inspire and support each other. We also differ in how we look at the issue of taking care of our bodies.

Going back to the terminology… I don’t think I even deal with 'contemporary dance' anymore. When someone asks me what I do, I usually say ‘new choreography’ or ‘new dance’, and when someone asks for a definition, I say that it’s like contemporary dance but newer. It’s even more contemporary, the most contemporary. Thus, on the one hand, it’s better, but on the other hand there are still culture journalists asking 'What is it like in your dance theatre?', and that really drives me mad.

I think that the distinction between ballet, dance theatre, contemporary dance, and new choreography is only starting to be clear for the wider audience. Upon hearing the term 'dance theatre', it’s easy to think: 'oh yeah, a show with dancers'…

…which usually takes place in a theatre. However, dance theatre has its historical circumstances – at some point in time, it was created and enjoyed popularity. It seems to me that the cause of the confusion is the fact that there are many dance theatres, like here in Poznań [Polish Dance Theatre known until recently as Polish Dance Theatre – Poznań Ballet – Ed.]. I think what makes the distinction so difficult is that the lines between the characteristics of individual dance sections are blurred. I can also base my next show on ballerinas and ballet, making it difficult to put in a given category. Labels are more related to the artistic path and context than to the work itself.

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Lokis by Łukasz Twarkowski choreographed by Paweł Sakowicz, photo: D. Matvejevr

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"Lokis" Łukasza Twarkowskiego, fot. D. Matvejevr

Let’s get back to the relationship between theatre and dance. The choreographer’s role in working on a theatre show is undergoing changes nowadays. The choreographer is equally a co-creator with a huge influence on the dramatic effect, for example.

Again, it depends on a given case and given people. I can only talk about myself. I have been and still am lucky to only work with people who respect other artists. It was a fantastic move by Anna Smolar to 'break the credits' on the poster [the poster for Thriller reads 'directed/choreographed by Paweł Sakowicz/Anna Smolar' – Ed.]. Even the Nowy Theatre didn’t know how to go about it initially. Direction next to choreography, our names together, separated by a slash…?

However, I did have very different collaborations: both those where I felt ‘in the right place’, sensing that my contribution was important, and those where I was only a forced addition, participating in rehearsals from 9 p.m. till 10 p.m. when nobody wanted to do it anymore.

You mention Anna Smolar but you also got along well with Łukasz Twarkowski.

We worked together on Lokis in Vilnius, and recently on Once Upon a Time… Life in Hanover. Now we are working together for the third time and the scale of the show in June 2020 in Vilnius will be totally grand.

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Scene from Massacre choreographed by Paweł Sakowicz, photo: Maurycy Stankiewicz/Nowy Teatr in Warsaw

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You also stress the importance of research in your work – both books and the Internet. Do you write down various interesting bits for later, like you do with titles and the ‘score’ for your choreography?

Sure! Again, I use analogue means. If I had to save every link on Facebook or Instagram, the ideas for the show would quickly get mixed up with cute dog photos or recipes so I needed a separate space for research.

The practice of collecting inspirations is also important in terms of production. I haven’t yet had the comfort of just entering a rehearsal room and deciding what the show will be about then. The system is based on grants and projects which requires a specific proposal and concept from the get-go. While preparing for Massacre, I read so many texts concerning racial performances and representations of bodies and Latino culture that I wanted to include everything. Together with Anna Herbut, we drafted about forty versions of the script. The subject limitation proved really helpful back then as we understood it was impossible to talk about everything.

Are there any subjects of research that you have found particularly fascinating lately?

Ever since Jumpcore I have been fascinated by the issue of acceleration and deceleration. If I see anything related to speed and deceleration, the physics of rotation and momentum, it grabs my attention.

If you weren’t a choreographer and dancer, what else might you be doing?

I would probably have completed my master’s degree in political science and work in political marketing, but I dropped out, fortunately. I also like architecture a lot, perhaps I would have found a career there. I like the way it all turned out.

Paweł Sakowicz – TOTAL from Art Stations Foundation on Vimeo.

Have you had any breakdowns? When you thought that maybe this was not something you should do for the rest of your life?

I kind of felt like this when studying in London, especially right after graduation. I was watching my colleagues who often had precise plans for the future even in their first or second year of studies. I was afraid that I would graduate from the school soon not sure whether I should focus on my works or start performing… I attended several auditions for big dance companies in London and I didn’t qualify. I was tormented by the question: ‘what should I do?’ I returned to Poland ‘temporarily’ and I stayed here.

In the aforementioned TOTAL you use the tool of speculation, as you said yourself. Let’s speculate a little. It’s rumoured that the world will end in 30 years. Do you think it’s true?

I love science-fiction movies about the end of the world and extreme weather but I don’t think scenarios like The Day After Tomorrow or 2012 will happen. However, if you look at the weather today, I think it’s 34 degrees Celsius…

…or even 38!

Yeah, that says a lot. I think the world is slowly coming to an end. This may not happen in 30 years and it won’t be spectacular but it’s coming.

Okay, let’s assume the world won’t end: where do you see the Polish contemporary dance and new choreography in 30 years’ time?

I am a little worried that there are so few institutions supporting the type of dance and choreography we do. I think that choreography will continue to make sure that both the choice of subjects and the work system are based on respect and curiosity surrounding current events. Perhaps the current popularity of utopia in contemporary dance and choreography will somehow start to turn this utopia into reality. Perhaps we will also go back to the collective work system? However, I don’t think there will be a great revolution. Ballet will continue to be a beautiful, phenomenal thing that exists alongside the dance theatre and conceptual art.

Do you watch ballet sometimes?

I haven’t attended a ballet show for a long time but, to be honest, it gives me great pleasure.

So you sometimes leave the comfort zone of ‘the most contemporary dance’?

Definitely!

One more thing about the end of the world… What choreography would you prepare for such an occasion?

Probably one in which the only figure would be rotation.

The interview was conducted by Marcelina Obarska in June 2019 in Poznań, Poland (during the Malta Festival, where Paweł Sakowicz showcased his performance Massacre).

Language English

paweł sakowicz

polish contemporary dance

Malta Festival